Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

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Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Vladimir Ozerov
Igniters,

I noted that the most common action I do on the devlist is clicking "Mark
As Read". All I see is JIRA and GitHub notifications. I simply counted last
100 threads and found that 89 of them are automated messages, 2 are MTCGA
bot messages, and 9 are real human-created threads.

Looks like human-created threads are drown inside generated stuff. As
potentially new contributor you will hardly figure out what is going on.
Does any info about opened tickets and PRs help anyone? Don't we want
instead to have a list like this [1] and move all generated stuff to
separate lists?

The only drawback I see from this action is that we no longer be able to
brag about "Top 5 active devlist" in annual ASF summary :-)

Thoughts?

Vladimir.

[1] http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov
Vova, I've also started such topic about GitBox messages (
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1870ba56e0eb9e184d055ef2c84114ea43219d7c845036566f68e880@%3Cdev.ignite.apache.org%3E
).
But it seems no one reacted.

I agree to move out GitHub PR notifications + GitBox messages (see a
solution in the thread). I disagree about test failures, because a
contributor may just disappear after a fix, and someone else should pick up
the test fix.

If we will be open, positive and welcoming we will be still in top-5 dev.
lists, because we have something to say :)

Here are some thoughts about busy lists that
- might help to be open,
- help everyone to feel free to discuss things
- help to notice a useful staff
 https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-
pattern/

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:31, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:

> Igniters,
>
> I noted that the most common action I do on the devlist is clicking "Mark
> As Read". All I see is JIRA and GitHub notifications. I simply counted last
> 100 threads and found that 89 of them are automated messages, 2 are MTCGA
> bot messages, and 9 are real human-created threads.
>
> Looks like human-created threads are drown inside generated stuff. As
> potentially new contributor you will hardly figure out what is going on.
> Does any info about opened tickets and PRs help anyone? Don't we want
> instead to have a list like this [1] and move all generated stuff to
> separate lists?
>
> The only drawback I see from this action is that we no longer be able to
> brag about "Top 5 active devlist" in annual ASF summary :-)
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Vladimir.
>
> [1] http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

dsetrakyan
I just have a filter for Jira emails and automatically go into a different
folder for me.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:40 AM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Vova, I've also started such topic about GitBox messages (
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/1870ba56e0eb9e184d055ef2c84114ea43219d7c845036566f68e880@%3Cdev.ignite.apache.org%3E
> ).
> But it seems no one reacted.
>
> I agree to move out GitHub PR notifications + GitBox messages (see a
> solution in the thread). I disagree about test failures, because a
> contributor may just disappear after a fix, and someone else should pick up
> the test fix.
>
> If we will be open, positive and welcoming we will be still in top-5 dev.
> lists, because we have something to say :)
>
> Here are some thoughts about busy lists that
> - might help to be open,
> - help everyone to feel free to discuss things
> - help to notice a useful staff
>  https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-
> pattern/
> <https://grep.codeconsult.ch/2011/12/06/stefanos-mazzocchis-busy-list-pattern/>
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:31, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Igniters,
> >
> > I noted that the most common action I do on the devlist is clicking "Mark
> > As Read". All I see is JIRA and GitHub notifications. I simply counted
> last
> > 100 threads and found that 89 of them are automated messages, 2 are MTCGA
> > bot messages, and 9 are real human-created threads.
> >
> > Looks like human-created threads are drown inside generated stuff. As
> > potentially new contributor you will hardly figure out what is going on.
> > Does any info about opened tickets and PRs help anyone? Don't we want
> > instead to have a list like this [1] and move all generated stuff to
> > separate lists?
> >
> > The only drawback I see from this action is that we no longer be able to
> > brag about "Top 5 active devlist" in annual ASF summary :-)
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Vladimir.
> >
> > [1] http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Alexey Kuznetsov
Hi!

I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search issue
there without visiting JIRA).

And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.

I don't know what for we need them?

May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it goes?

--
Alexey Kuznetsov
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov
I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.

PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so it
may be ok to move Git's messages to [hidden email]
<[hidden email].orgб>

But we should keep JIRA and test failures.

вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <[hidden email]>:

> Hi!
>
> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search issue
> there without visiting JIRA).
>
> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
>
> I don't know what for we need them?
>
> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it goes?
>
> --
> Alexey Kuznetsov
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

vveider
Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24 hours) with notification scheme?


> On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
> helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
> duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
>
> PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so it
> may be ok to move Git's messages to [hidden email]
> <[hidden email].orgб>
>
> But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
>
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search issue
>> there without visiting JIRA).
>>
>> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
>>
>> I don't know what for we need them?
>>
>> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it goes?
>>
>> --
>> Alexey Kuznetsov
>>

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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov
Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list allows
subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I remember
this correctly.

вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:

> Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24 hours)
> with notification scheme?
>
>
> > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
> > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
> > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> >
> > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so
> it
> > may be ok to move Git's messages to [hidden email]
> > <[hidden email].orgб>
> >
> > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> >
> > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search
> issue
> >> there without visiting JIRA).
> >>
> >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> >>
> >> I don't know what for we need them?
> >>
> >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it
> goes?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> >>
>
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Vladimir Ozerov
Igniters,

I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails are
already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?

Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone writes an
email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a bug, or
a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average devlist
user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely to
be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.

As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the list?

Vladimir.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list allows
> subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I remember
> this correctly.
>
> вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> hours)
> > with notification scheme?
> >
> >
> > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step. It
> > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach, find a
> > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > >
> > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR), so
> > it
> > > may be ok to move Git's messages to [hidden email]
> > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > >
> > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > >
> > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > >> Hi!
> > >>
> > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search
> > issue
> > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > >>
> > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > >>
> > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how it
> > goes?
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > >>
> >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov-3
IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.


ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:

> Igniters,
>
> I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails are
> already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
> with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
> first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
>
> Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
> JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone writes an
> email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a bug, or
> a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average devlist
> user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely to
> be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
>
> As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the list?
>
> Vladimir.
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list
> allows
> > subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I
> remember
> > this correctly.
> >
> > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> > hours)
> > > with notification scheme?
> > >
> > >
> > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first step.
> It
> > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in the
> > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach,
> find a
> > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > >
> > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..* PR),
> so
> > > it
> > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to [hidden email]
> > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > >
> > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > >
> > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi!
> > > >>
> > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick search
> > > issue
> > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > >>
> > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > >>
> > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how
> it
> > > goes?
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Denis Mekhanikov
Guys,

I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
list (maybe except most important ones).
I already wrote about it here:
http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html

What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
to track human communication.
It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.

Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on the
sending side.

Denis

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
>
>
> ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Igniters,
> >
> > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails are
> > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
> > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
> > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> >
> > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
> > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone writes
> an
> > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a bug,
> or
> > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> devlist
> > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely
> to
> > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> >
> > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the list?
> >
> > Vladimir.
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list
> > allows
> > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I
> > remember
> > > this correctly.
> > >
> > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> > > hours)
> > > > with notification scheme?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> step.
> > It
> > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in
> the
> > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach,
> > find a
> > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > >
> > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..*
> PR),
> > so
> > > > it
> > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> [hidden email]
> > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > >
> > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > >
> > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Hi!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> search
> > > > issue
> > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > >>
> > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see how
> > it
> > > > goes?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov-3
Hi Denis,

Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.

Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
open/community friendly manner:
- to announce important features, and
- Telegraph their intent
- Draft designs openly
- Submit work in chunks
- Welcome feedback along the way
http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24

we can't just remove JIRA from the list.

Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
follow by subscribing to dev. list.

If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.

Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?

Sincerely,
Dmitriy Pavlov

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:

> Guys,
>
> I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
> list (maybe except most important ones).
> I already wrote about it here:
>
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
>
> What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
> to track human communication.
> It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
> tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
>
> Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
> Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on the
> sending side.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> >
> >
> > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Igniters,
> > >
> > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails
> are
> > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall flow
> > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in the
> > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > >
> > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far as
> > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> writes
> > an
> > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> bug,
> > or
> > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > devlist
> > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very unlikely
> > to
> > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > >
> > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> list?
> > >
> > > Vladimir.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache list
> > > allows
> > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I
> > > remember
> > > > this correctly.
> > > >
> > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last 24
> > > > hours)
> > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> > step.
> > > It
> > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do in
> > the
> > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best approach,
> > > find a
> > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..*
> > PR),
> > > so
> > > > > it
> > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > [hidden email]
> > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> > search
> > > > > issue
> > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see
> how
> > > it
> > > > > goes?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> --
> > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Vladimir Ozerov
Dmitriy,

The problem is already outlined above - JIRA notifications have very little
to do with openness, as most of them are either minor things or decisions
which are already made. You will never see the whole picture of what the
project is doing.
What is *MUCH* worse is that currently we have false impression that all is
fine. Top 5 active dev list! Woohoo!.Reality: 90% is generate messages.
Remove them - and we will see what really happens to the project. And if we
see silence on the list, this will raise immediate questions on community
health.

In any case, moving JIRA messages to another mailing list will never do any
harm if implemented properly. E.g. we can send weekly notifications to the
devlist to keep readers aware that opened tickets are tracked in another
list. Even better, we may send weekly digests with all opened tickets.
Instead of 100 messages we will have 1. Or we can do it daily if needed.

The key idea - split *mostly* important communications from *mostly*
unimportant.

Vladimir.


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:58 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Denis,
>
> Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
>
> Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> open/community friendly manner:
> - to announce important features, and
> - Telegraph their intent
> - Draft designs openly
> - Submit work in chunks
> - Welcome feedback along the way
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
>
> we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
>
> Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> follow by subscribing to dev. list.
>
> If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
> and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
>
> Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Guys,
> >
> > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
> > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > I already wrote about it here:
> >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> >
> > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
> > to track human communication.
> > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
> > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> >
> > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
> > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on
> the
> > sending side.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > >
> > >
> > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Igniters,
> > > >
> > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails
> > are
> > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall
> flow
> > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in
> the
> > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > > >
> > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far
> as
> > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > writes
> > > an
> > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> > bug,
> > > or
> > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > > devlist
> > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> unlikely
> > > to
> > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > >
> > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> > list?
> > > >
> > > > Vladimir.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache
> list
> > > > allows
> > > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I
> > > > remember
> > > > > this correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last
> 24
> > > > > hours)
> > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> > > step.
> > > > It
> > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> approach,
> > > > find a
> > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..*
> > > PR),
> > > > so
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> > > search
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see
> > how
> > > > it
> > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Denis Mekhanikov
In reply to this post by Dmitriy Pavlov-3
Dmitriy,

If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should make
it a part of the required development process.
Otherwise people just won't care about it.
Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would be
violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.

If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent half
an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of spam
messages from bots.

If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering, because
you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.

Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.

Denis

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Denis,
>
> Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
>
> Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> open/community friendly manner:
> - to announce important features, and
> - Telegraph their intent
> - Draft designs openly
> - Submit work in chunks
> - Welcome feedback along the way
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
>
> we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
>
> Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> follow by subscribing to dev. list.
>
> If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
> and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
>
> Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
>
> Sincerely,
> Dmitriy Pavlov
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Guys,
> >
> > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate mailing
> > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > I already wrote about it here:
> >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> >
> > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no ability
> > to track human communication.
> > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about JIRA
> > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> >
> > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's time.
> > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on
> the
> > sending side.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair can
> > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > >
> > >
> > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Igniters,
> > > >
> > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is not
> > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list emails
> > are
> > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall
> flow
> > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in
> the
> > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > > >
> > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As far
> as
> > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > writes
> > > an
> > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic requiring
> > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> > bug,
> > > or
> > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > > devlist
> > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> unlikely
> > > to
> > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important information
> > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > >
> > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> > list?
> > > >
> > > > Vladimir.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache
> list
> > > > allows
> > > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if I
> > > > remember
> > > > > this correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during last
> 24
> > > > > hours)
> > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the first
> > > step.
> > > > It
> > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to do
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> approach,
> > > > find a
> > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA 1..*
> > > PR),
> > > > so
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> > > search
> > > > > > issue
> > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about PRs.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and see
> > how
> > > > it
> > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov-3
I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.

JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.

If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So for
me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
remain here.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:

> Dmitriy,
>
> If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should make
> it a part of the required development process.
> Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would be
> violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
>
> If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent half
> an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of spam
> messages from bots.
>
> If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering, because
> you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
>
> Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Hi Denis,
> >
> > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> >
> > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> > open/community friendly manner:
> > - to announce important features, and
> > - Telegraph their intent
> > - Draft designs openly
> > - Submit work in chunks
> > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> >
> > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> >
> > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> >
> > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important features
> > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> >
> > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Dmitriy Pavlov
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Guys,
> > >
> > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> mailing
> > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > I already wrote about it here:
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > >
> > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> ability
> > > to track human communication.
> > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about
> JIRA
> > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > >
> > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> time.
> > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails on
> > the
> > > sending side.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair
> can
> > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > >
> > > > > Igniters,
> > > > >
> > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is
> not
> > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> emails
> > > are
> > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from overall
> > flow
> > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why in
> > the
> > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated nightmare?
> > > > >
> > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As
> far
> > as
> > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > > writes
> > > > an
> > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> requiring
> > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this either a
> > > bug,
> > > > or
> > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words - average
> > > > devlist
> > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> > unlikely
> > > > to
> > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> information
> > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from the
> > > list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache
> > list
> > > > > allows
> > > > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email] if
> I
> > > > > remember
> > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily digest?
> > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during
> last
> > 24
> > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the
> first
> > > > step.
> > > > > It
> > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to
> do
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> > approach,
> > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA
> 1..*
> > > > PR),
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can quick
> > > > search
> > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about
> PRs.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and
> see
> > > how
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Denis Mekhanikov
Dmitriy,

> I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
I doesn't mean we should make them do it.

How do JIRA messages help?
If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
If you want a code review – write to dev list.
If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.

Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
updates.
There is no point in sending messages to everyone.

Denis

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
>
> JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
>
> If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So for
> me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> remain here.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> make
> > it a part of the required development process.
> > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would be
> > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> >
> > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent half
> > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of spam
> > messages from bots.
> >
> > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> because
> > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> >
> > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Hi Denis,
> > >
> > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > >
> > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in an
> > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > - to announce important features, and
> > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > - Draft designs openly
> > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > >
> > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > >
> > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy to
> > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > >
> > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> features
> > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > >
> > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > >
> > > > Guys,
> > > >
> > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > mailing
> > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > >
> > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> > ability
> > > > to track human communication.
> > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages about
> > JIRA
> > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > >
> > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> > time.
> > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails
> on
> > > the
> > > > sending side.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC chair
> > can
> > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it is
> > not
> > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> > emails
> > > > are
> > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> overall
> > > flow
> > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> nightmare?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that. As
> > far
> > > as
> > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When someone
> > > > writes
> > > > > an
> > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> > requiring
> > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this
> either a
> > > > bug,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words -
> average
> > > > > devlist
> > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> > > unlikely
> > > > > to
> > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > information
> > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from
> the
> > > > list?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because Apache
> > > list
> > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email]
> if
> > I
> > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily
> digest?
> > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during
> > last
> > > 24
> > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the
> > first
> > > > > step.
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going to
> > do
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> > > approach,
> > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1 JIRA
> > 1..*
> > > > > PR),
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can
> quick
> > > > > search
> > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox & about
> > PRs.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first and
> > see
> > > > how
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Vladimir Ozerov
Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
flows will help us understand where we are.

And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
- "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.

Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Dmitriy,
>
> > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
>
> How do JIRA messages help?
> If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
>
> Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> updates.
> There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
>
> > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> >
> > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> >
> > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> for
> > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > remain here.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > Dmitriy,
> > >
> > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> > make
> > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would
> be
> > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > >
> > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> half
> > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> spam
> > > messages from bots.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > because
> > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > >
> > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Hi Denis,
> > > >
> > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > >
> > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in
> an
> > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > >
> > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > >
> > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy
> to
> > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > >
> > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > features
> > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > >
> > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Guys,
> > > > >
> > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > > mailing
> > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > >
> > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> > > ability
> > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> about
> > > JIRA
> > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > >
> > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> > > time.
> > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > sending side.
> > > > >
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC
> chair
> > > can
> > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it
> is
> > > not
> > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> > > emails
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> > overall
> > > > flow
> > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > nightmare?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that.
> As
> > > far
> > > > as
> > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When
> someone
> > > > > writes
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> > > requiring
> > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this
> > either a
> > > > > bug,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words -
> > average
> > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> > > > unlikely
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > information
> > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from
> > the
> > > > > list?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because
> Apache
> > > > list
> > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email]
> > if
> > > I
> > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily
> > digest?
> > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during
> > > last
> > > > 24
> > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the
> > > first
> > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going
> to
> > > do
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> > > > approach,
> > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1
> JIRA
> > > 1..*
> > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can
> > quick
> > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox &
> about
> > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first
> and
> > > see
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Pavel Tupitsyn
Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
Emails to everyone are not.

+1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list should
be human-only.
So separate list is the only way.


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
> stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
> can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
> this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
> flows will help us understand where we are.
>
> And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
> - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
>
> Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
> to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
> emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> >
> > How do JIRA messages help?
> > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> >
> > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > updates.
> > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > >
> > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > >
> > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided
> as
> > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> > for
> > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable
> to
> > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > > remain here.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> should
> > > make
> > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> would
> > be
> > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > >
> > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> > half
> > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > spam
> > > > messages from bots.
> > > >
> > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > because
> > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > >
> > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> should
> > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should
> be
> > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development
> in
> > an
> > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > >
> > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development
> easy
> > to
> > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > features
> > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > > > mailing
> > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> > > > ability
> > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> > about
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> everybody's
> > > > time.
> > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of
> emails
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC
> > chair
> > > > can
> > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First,
> it
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> > > > emails
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> > > overall
> > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is
> why
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that.
> > As
> > > > far
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When
> > someone
> > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this
> > > either a
> > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words -
> > > average
> > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is
> very
> > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > > information
> > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages
> from
> > > the
> > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because
> > Apache
> > > > > list
> > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> [hidden email]
> > > if
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily
> > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates
> during
> > > > last
> > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as
> the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are
> going
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1
> > JIRA
> > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can
> > > quick
> > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox &
> > about
> > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first
> > and
> > > > see
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Павлухин Иван
In reply to this post by Vladimir Ozerov
Hi,

In my opinion there should be only development discussions and
important notifications on dev list. But I must say that I started to
look through Jira and even GitHub notifications from time to time. And
I find that it sometimes gives me a useful information like
"contributor A is doing B". But I think that there will be no harm for
me to check it on different mail list.
чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 20:11, Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>:

>
> Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
> stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
> can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
> this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
> flows will help us understand where we are.
>
> And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
> - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
>
> Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
> to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
> emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dmitriy,
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> >
> > How do JIRA messages help?
> > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> >
> > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > updates.
> > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> >
> > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > >
> > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > >
> > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> > for
> > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > > remain here.
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> > > make
> > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would
> > be
> > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > >
> > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> > half
> > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > spam
> > > > messages from bots.
> > > >
> > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > because
> > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > >
> > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > >
> > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in
> > an
> > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > >
> > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > >
> > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy
> > to
> > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > features
> > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > > > mailing
> > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> > > > ability
> > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> > about
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> > > > time.
> > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC
> > chair
> > > > can
> > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First, it
> > is
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> > > > emails
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> > > overall
> > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is why
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with that.
> > As
> > > > far
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When
> > someone
> > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this
> > > either a
> > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words -
> > > average
> > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is very
> > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > > information
> > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages from
> > > the
> > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because
> > Apache
> > > > > list
> > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest. [hidden email]
> > > if
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily
> > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates during
> > > > last
> > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are going
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the best
> > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1
> > JIRA
> > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I can
> > > quick
> > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox &
> > about
> > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails first
> > and
> > > > see
> > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >



--
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Dmitriy Pavlov-3
In reply to this post by Pavel Tupitsyn
How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?

Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira removal
does not make any sense for me.

Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity from
github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
members and users who is subscribed to the list.

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:

> Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> Emails to everyone are not.
>
> +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list should
> be human-only.
> So separate list is the only way.
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
> > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> generated
> > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that
> we
> > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> stuff,
> > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> message
> > flows will help us understand where we are.
> >
> > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
> > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> solution
> > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
> > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> >
> > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> useful
> > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> generated
> > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dmitriy,
> > >
> > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > >
> > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > >
> > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > > updates.
> > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > >
> > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > >
> > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > >
> > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> provided
> > as
> > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health.
> So
> > > for
> > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable
> > to
> > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> should
> > > > remain here.
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > >
> > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > should
> > > > make
> > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> spent
> > > half
> > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> > > spam
> > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> could
> > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > > > because
> > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> > should
> > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> should
> > be
> > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > > > >
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development
> > in
> > > an
> > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > >
> > > http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development
> > easy
> > > to
> > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > > features
> > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a
> separate
> > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with
> no
> > > > > ability
> > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> > > about
> > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > everybody's
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of
> > emails
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> [hidden email]
> > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC
> > > chair
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git
> repos.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First,
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my
> dev-list
> > > > > emails
> > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> > > > overall
> > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things - is
> > why
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with
> that.
> > > As
> > > > > far
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When
> > > someone
> > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this
> > > > either a
> > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words -
> > > > average
> > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is
> > very
> > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because
> > > Apache
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > [hidden email]
> > > > if
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of daily
> > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates
> > during
> > > > > last
> > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues as
> > the
> > > > > first
> > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are
> > going
> > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the
> best
> > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA (as 1
> > > JIRA
> > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I
> can
> > > > quick
> > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox &
> > > about
> > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails
> first
> > > and
> > > > > see
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?

Vladimir Ozerov
Dmitry,

What Apache member do you refer to?

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:

> How do you know what to watch if new tickets are not forwarded?
>
> Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is duplicate to jira, but jira removal
> does not make any sense for me.
>
> Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all comments and all activity from
> github to the list. So if Apache member will confirm it is not useful to
> allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the list we can continue
> discussion. Openness is needed not for veterans but for all community
> members and users who is subscribed to the list.
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets are very useful.
> > Emails to everyone are not.
> >
> > +1 for separate mailing list for all automated emails.
> > I don't think we can avoid automated emails completely, but dev list
> should
> > be human-only.
> > So separate list is the only way.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir Ozerov <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
> > > health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets
> and
> > > too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate
> > generated
> > > stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided
> that
> > we
> > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated
> > stuff,
> > > this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
> > > phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting
> > message
> > > flows will help us understand where we are.
> > >
> > > And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these
> messages -
> > > they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed
> > solution
> > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do
> not
> > > know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
> > > messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.
> > >
> > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
> > > understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it
> > useful
> > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
> > > understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these
> > generated
> > > emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <
> [hidden email]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dmitriy,
> > > >
> > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
> > > >
> > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > > > If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> > > > If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> > > > If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
> > > >
> > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> > > > updates.
> > > > There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
> > > >
> > > > Denis
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]>:
> > > >
> > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> > > > >
> > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> > > > >
> > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just
> > provided
> > > as
> > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community
> health.
> > So
> > > > for
> > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is
> reasonable
> > > to
> > > > > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA
> > should
> > > > > remain here.
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we
> > > should
> > > > > make
> > > > > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness
> > > would
> > > > be
> > > > > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who
> > spent
> > > > half
> > > > > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood
> of
> > > > spam
> > > > > > messages from bots.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you
> > could
> > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > > > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify
> filtering,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you
> > > should
> > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > > > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter
> > should
> > > be
> > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the
> inbox.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Denis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <[hidden email]
> >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the
> development.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their
> development
> > > in
> > > > an
> > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development
> > > easy
> > > > to
> > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > > > > features
> > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guys,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a
> > separate
> > > > > > mailing
> > > > > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess
> with
> > no
> > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because
> messages
> > > > about
> > > > > > JIRA
> > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting
> > > everybody's
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of
> > > emails
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > sending side.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > [hidden email]
> > > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then
> PMC
> > > > chair
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git
> > repos.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution.
> First,
> > > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my
> > dev-list
> > > > > > emails
> > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails
> from
> > > > > overall
> > > > > > > flow
> > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things -
> is
> > > why
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > > > > nightmare?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with
> > that.
> > > > As
> > > > > > far
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When
> > > > someone
> > > > > > > > writes
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important
> topic
> > > > > > requiring
> > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely
> this
> > > > > either a
> > > > > > > > bug,
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other
> words -
> > > > > average
> > > > > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and is
> > > very
> > > > > > > unlikely
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > > > > information
> > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git
> messages
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > list?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed
> because
> > > > Apache
> > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > > [hidden email]
> > > > > if
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind of
> daily
> > > > > digest?
> > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks / updates
> > > during
> > > > > > last
> > > > > > > 24
> > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA issues
> as
> > > the
> > > > > > first
> > > > > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other people are
> > > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is not the
> > best
> > > > > > > approach,
> > > > > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates JIRA
> (as 1
> > > > JIRA
> > > > > > 1..*
> > > > > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <[hidden email].orgб>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very useful, I
> > can
> > > > > quick
> > > > > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails from GitBox
> &
> > > > about
> > > > > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related mails
> > first
> > > > and
> > > > > > see
> > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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